My Photo

Life On the Internet

Reading List

Blog powered by TypePad

« Move was successful | Main | Causal Awareness as a True Pre-Condition to Habermas's Ideal Speech Act »

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83453ee1869e200e54eef0a998834

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Clay Shirky on Keen's "Cult of the Amateur":

Comments

Tom Armstrong

Robb, you have an elitist mindset. Just because tons of content is available to us immediately doesn't mean that there isn't adequate filtering that follows after.

Want to know world news? Click on the New York Times website. It's pretty immediate and plenty filtered. Want to know things wholly through the filter of the elite, restrict your reading to Forbes and Vanity Fair.

From what I've read, from professional sources, a bunker mentality of any kind isn't healthy. If the terrorists were truly worldly they would be more sympathetic with the hoi polloi and less inclined to blow them up. We would all hate for the I-L caste to devolve into a paranoid group fearful of the Great Unwashed.

In David Berreby’s book “Us and Them: Understanding Your Tribal Mind” [ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316090301/ ] it talks about divisions and divisiveness that occurs in the ways people rather too easily sort themselves.

Sort less, I [an amateur] say. Some animals are not more equal than others.

Robb

Tom, apparently you have an elitist mindset, too, because the New York Times is a pre-filtered collection of content. And in fact, you've made my point: people are willing to pay for the NYT because it is filtered. So while I jest about your elitism, it is because the only thing I'm saying about content filtering that is in the least bit elitist is that some people are better at it than others, and apparently millions of NYT readers agree with me. Filtering is worth something, whether it be in online content or offline interaction. The internet by its structure will take care of the availability issue, the other end of the sorting spectrum. (Metaphorically agency/communion.)

Tom Armstrong

The New York Times "is pre-filtered." The NYT "is filtered." Now I am really confused.

The New York Times is now online. Most of it's content is free. But even as hardcopy, its owners/editors WANT to reach ALL readers.

You want to impose a fee on I-L users to exclude people. To create a club, as you say.

Here, you are in opposition to the discovery of Kind scientists who find that it is division [which you seek] which is the cause of divisiveness. It is NOT the other way around as you and most people suppose. "Inclusiveness defeats divisiveness." That is not what most people intuit to be the case, but it is so.

Perhaps for fiscal reasons a fee should be charged at I-L, but your justification for the fee is unsound. Keeping out the hoi polloi won't make it a richer place, it will only mean the members of the club are richer in the sense of being wealthier.

The filtered/unfiltered issue is unimportant. We have long had our choice of either or both. The great advantage of blogger journalists, the Vast Fourth Squared Estate, is that they find needles in haystacks that wouldn't otherwise be found. AND THEN, AND THEN, the issues get picked up by more-professional organizations where PERHAPS greater sense can be made of wider issues comprised of narrow topics.

But this is little different than it has always been. And I would certainly maintain that it is healthy for the public to (generally) always have access to raw data and we should allow, freely, for its promulgation. Otherwise, we lose track of the validity of what filtering there is. [North Korea is an example of a place where filtering has gone amok.]

The idea that Wikipedia has been met with a catastrophe is melodramatic. People just, generally, need to remember what Wikipedia IS -- that there is a price (and danger] for/(in) instantly available, up-to-date information, that the Wiki folks are trying to deal with. The outcome of all this will be semi-satisfactory. Best outcomes are usually trades that are semi-satisfactory. Or, maybe the "problem" never will be resolved (or resolvable), and THAT will be semi-satisfactory.

Am I missing something here? Am I just magnificently and completely right about everyhing ... or, less likely, am I stupidly missing the whole point of your post?

Tom Armstrong

Speaking of filtering, I just got my Holons email. Holons is supposedly now a blog, but the blogginess has quickly been filtered out of it and it has now become the Sears Catalog of Integral. Buy, buy, buy your Wilberian Power Tools, now, now, now. It's spooky has hell. Maybe you have a point in your post, Robb.

Robb Smith

Well, the term "blog" presupposes too much subjectively for me to debate that point. Holons is what it is, and some people probably appreciate the mix of news, commentary and new product availability, and others probably don't. Disappointment derives from expectation, and I suppose we haven't met yours. However, I presume it is different than the Sears catalog in that most people don't get upset at their Sears catalog.

Tom Armstrong

Sorry. I was wrong. I like Sears Catalogs ... and Holons, still. But it is filtered. Not for excellence (or JUST for excellence), but to make a wee bit of product push.

I think it is a bit of a bad thing to confuse content [ie, news, information, opinion meant to stimulate/interest readers] with product placements. [I saw The Squid and the Whale last night -- they sneaked in a Purina advert. Aaaay!]

Corinne Sutter

Dear Robb, this was exactly the point of what I was saying to you back in June. A `customer` is someone embedded in the holonic worldspace, where the gross current conditions dictate that there be a `marketplace`. You`re the `CEO`, we`re the `customers`. I believe Ken`s work sees those identities as transitory, and yet we can`t all be in the same room together. I don`t envy your position, honestly speaking. You`re trying to create a participatory viable entity and the amount of limitation in this system is massive. Or is it? There is a simultaneous range of emotions at play here-I think I can speak for others as well-like wanting to be in more inclusive role at I-W (but being unable to because of whatnot life conditions), yes, putting up a fence will exclude others, but it will also keep the field from being trampled and destroyed. And yet how could I and so many others through all their range of knowledge and experiences that correlate with Integral Theory RESONATE with the practices, the praxis? Is the Ground really as fixed as we think it is? And who decides the `RULES`? It would be unfortunate for you to miss out on the full experience of the entire community, and yet you need to maintain a sort of INTEGRITY (agency) of I-W. Unfortunate about the elitist comment. I support you in these hard decisions. Please don`t stop asking the hard questions-or fixing on a solution because it`s convenient. The NY Times had to about face today, yes? Thanks for listening.
Sincerely, Corinne Sutter (Tokyo)

Robert Payne

And as Corrine concludes, all of the NY Times content is now free. Why? Because pulling content out from behind a subscription wall allows search engines to see it, which in turn generates more traffic, subsequently driving and satisfying more advertisers. To avoid getting into a lengthy discussion about the lack of true separation between editorial and advertising, I'll just say,
Keen is annoying. Fortunately, most of us are equipped with our own filters that help us govern what content is of most value - amateur or professional.
If anything the amateurs are pushing the professionals to truly distinguish themselves and demonstrate why they are professionals. The beauty of the democratization of the web is we can CHOOSE to enjoy or filter little nuggets of knowledge and wisdom that permeate out from professionals and the so called "cult of amateurs."

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Enter your email address:

Delivered by FeedBurner

My Photos

  • www.flickr.com

Aphorisms

  • The Toothless Bite of Men
    One cannot assume the truth of what one declares without presuming the falsity of all incongruous declarations. Since all men assume the truth of their declarations, this presumption becomes at best ironic and at worst outrageous. Given the infinity of possible claims, who could be so vain as to think their dismal claims true? The tragedy, of course, is that we cannot but make declarations. So it seems we must speak as Gods in order to converse as Men.
  • The Best Approach to Life
    "I don't mind what happens." - Krishnamurti
  • On Proof the World is Round
    The only proof we need that the world is round is to consider that every man thinks he stands taller than the man next to him.